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<html><head><title>An Interview with Ron Thornton</title><map name="toplevel"><area shape="RECT" coords="0,0,99,23" href="/lurk/universe/intro.html" alt="Universe"><area shape="RECT" coords="100,0,199,23" href="/lurk/episodes.php" alt="Episodes"><area shape="RECT" coords="200,0,299,23" href="/lurk/making/creators.html" alt="People"><area shape="RECT" coords="300,0,399,23" href="/lurk/resources/online.html" alt="Resources"><area shape="RECT" coords="400,0,499,23" href="/lurk/reference/episodes.html" alt="Encyclopedia"><area shape="RECT" coords="0,24,499,31" nohref></map>
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<h2>An Interview with Ron Thornton</h2>
by Eric Reinholt&lt;<a href="mailto:eric.reinholt@gmail.com">eric.reinholt@gmail.com</a>&gt;.Originally published in <strong>Babylon 5 - Online!</strong>. Reprintedin the Lurker's Guide by permission of the author.<p>Week after week, Visual Effects Artist Ron Thornton and his staff atFoundation Imaging create the eye popping, Emmy Award winning, CGI(Computer Generated Images) special effects for J. Michael Straczynski'stelevision universe of Babylon 5.<p>Dissatisfied with working in an airport in England, Ron and a friend wentto see the movie "Alien" where it occurred to him that someone got paid formaking all those models out of plastic.<p>Thornton then left his airport job, took most of his remaining money andpurchased plastics and other materials and began building and photographingmodels.  He took the photographs and used them to get a job with BBCtelevision.<p>Ron has since worked on the Peter Davidson Doctor Who series, then designedand built spaceships for final season of Blake's 7 (Ron built the Scorpioin his living room, in actuality he built about seven different versions ofthe Scorpio; different sized models, partial models etc.) and Tripods, allBritish television series.  Thornton then moved to Los Angles where heworked on props and miniatures for Real Genius, Class of 1999, Robot-Jox,T2 (in which he created the battle rifles), The Addams Family, Highlander2, Critters and Spaceballs.  Prior to working on Babylon 5, Thornton workedon Captain Power and the Soldiers of the Future television show where hefirst saw computer generated images for television special effects.<p>Television and computer screens are arrays of small dots or "pixels."  Eachpixel is assigned a color, contrast and intensity and when thousands ofthese pixels are combined, an image results.  Computer paint programs allowartists to arrange pixels to form pictures.  3-D image programs allowartists to manipulate those pixels to simulate images of objects as if theyactually existed in three dimensional space.<p>The pilot <a href="/lurk/guide/000.html">"The Gathering"</a>was rendered by eight interconnected Amiga 2000computers with Video Toaster boards which were connected to an IBM computerthat stored the images in five gigabytes of memory.  Foundation Imaging'scomputational power has increased tremendously with each work station nowbeing equivalent to the original eight Amigas and Ron's being theequivalent to sixteen Amigas.<p>The computer generated effects industry is still in its infancy and withonly one exception, all the effects for Babylon 5 have been created byThornton and his team.  The one exception was Jason Ironheart's god-liketorso effect at the end of <a href="/lurk/guide/006.html">"Mind War"</a>from Babylon 5's first season.<p><blockquote><i>Eric:</i>      "Fans from the first season of Babylon 5 (like myself) have	   wanted to know if LightWave has a pre-packaged torso in it,	   because of the Jason Ironheart god-like creature in "Mind War."<p><i>Thornton:</i>  "No, That is an off-the-shelf-bought database that we	   modified."<p><i>Eric:</i>      "Have you had anything else that you've been able to use	   right off the shelf?"<p><i>Thornton:</i>  "I wish!  Nobody's really got anything, we've got to build the	   stuff from scratch.  This show's got a look and it's got to stay	   in line with that look."</blockquote><p>Models are created in Lightwave's 3-D modeling program in an elaborateconnect-the-dots fashion that places the dots in three dimensional space.The dots are used as references for surfaces (polygons) which form theactual exterior of the computer models.<p>To help create and improve that look, Thornton and his team have builtphysical models which were photographed and scanned into their computers.<p><blockquote><i>Thornton:</i>  "We've built models and scanned them.  Basically it's just a	   flat object, it's just a flat piece of plastic that we've scored	   and painted and panel lined."<p>	   "You can get more organic patterns.  Anybody who paints with	   paint will tell you that it's totally different to paint on a	   computer.  There are certain things that paint does; like for	   instance you can get very, very thin paint, brush it over	   something and then wipe it off and it will go into the grooves,	   there's no way you can synthesize that on the computer, that	   sort of 'capillary bleed' effect that only happens with thin	   washes of paint.  And so you can get some really gorgeous	   organic textures which you can't get any other way and there's	   been a couple of times we've done it.</blockquote><p>According to Thornton, this is done just for that special organic effectwhich is then "bit mapped" onto the surface of the electronicallyconstructed ship.<p>Jason Ironheart's ship (<a href="/lurk/guide/006.html">Mind War</a>)was the first ship Ron built via computer(and was also seen in the pilot <a href="/lurk/guide/000.html">"The Gathering"</a>)in tribute to some of his"teachers" and is reminiscent of the Zep One from the British televisionshow Captain Zep.<a href="/lurk/ftp/Pictures/Effects/approach3.jpg"><imgalign=right width=85 height=64 hspace=4href="/lurk/ftp/Pictures/Effects/Thumb/approach3.gif"></a><p>Ron designed Babylon 5 (including the Cobra Bays) mostly by himself and"built it" in two weeks on the computer where a conventional model may haverequired six weeks or more and a larger team!<p>Some of the ships that are seen on the Babylon 5 series have actualphysical counterparts.  The blocky transport ships were among the modelsthat Thornton created and photographed to land a job in Special Effects.<p>Steve Berg and Ron split the designing of the ships of Babylon 5 about50/50.<p><blockquote><i>Eric:</i>      "Ron, how did you get the idea of using computers for creating	   Special Effects?"<p><i>Thornton:</i>  "It just sort of happened.  I ended up getting one of these	   machines, the Video Toaster, and I started playing with it and it	   was like 'give it a year or so and this could work.'<p>	   "This was way after Captain Power.  Captain Power had turned me	   off it (Computer Generated Special Effects), 'cause the stuff	   didn't look very good and there was no texture mapping per se.	   It was all very blocky looking, the animation wasn't that hot	   and they had real problems delivering the stuff; it was just	   taking them forever to do it."<p>	   "I had an Amiga for a while and it had a number of 3D packages	   which I sort of toyed with, but the Toaster was the first decent	   one."<p><i>Eric:</i>      "How long did it take from realizing that the Toaster could be	   used for effects work until Foundation Imaging was up and	   running?"<p><i>Thornton:</i>  "It was probably about a year and a half, during whichtime I was	   working with Todd Rundgren in Northern California on one of his	   shows.<p>	   "But a lot of it was the wait.  Once I convinced Joe	   [Straczynski] and John Copeland that this could be done this way	   it suddenly opened up a whole new venue and I did a bunch of	   tests; then we went in and pitched it once more to Peter	   [Ledger].  At least this time they could see that we could do	   it, that we could create some of this imagery."<p><i>Eric:</i>      "What is the cost of producing special effects withcomputers as	   opposed to those done with conventional means?"<p><i>Thornton:</i>  "I'd say that we're between a third and two thirds the cost."<p><i>Eric:</i>      "What are the basic steps in creating a CGI scene?"<p><i>Thornton:</i>  "Well, you build your model.  You pull it into thelayout.  You	   light it.  You shoot it.  It's very similar to having a motion	   control stage except you've got no limitations."</blockquote><p>The Starfury design is unique in science fiction and Thornton says that itis in no way based on that of the Star Wars X-Wing Fighters and are more ofa tribute to Ron Cobbs' designs in "The Last Starfighter."<p>The Starfury is able to move more realistically in flight, can move inone vector, spin on it's axis to track and fight other ships and not engagein "Battle of Britain" style dog fights (that are favored in other films).<p><blockquote><i>Thornton:</i>  "If you actually think about it, the Starfury is a totally	   impossible model to motion control.  Unless you did it on wires,	   because of the way the engine deflector plates are at the back,	   you couldn't put a mounting rod up the middle of it because the	   mounting rod would eclipse the plates that were rolling behind	   it.  The only way you could mount it is from the front.  It's	   just one of those 'impossible models.'"</blockquote><p>Foundation Imaging started out with five people and has grown to fifteenfor the Babylon 5 series.  Thornton, along with his partner PaulBeigle-Bryant (who created the software network that enables rendering andwho also performs computer hardware repairs), senior animators, Mojo (fromNew York) and John Teska supervise other computer animators.  Computeranimator Mark Swain, Effects Coordinator Shannon Casey and Cherry Hitch(who does 2-D rotoscope work on the virtual sets and overlays sucheffects as laser fire) are the core of talented people who make thecomputer generated effects of Babylon 5 a reality.<p>Effects are designed on an accelerated Amiga 2000 with a Video Toasterboard in it, using LightWave 3-D and Modeler 3-D.<p><blockquote><i>Eric:</i>      "How is building computer models different from building	   physical models?"<p><i>Thornton:</i>  "You still have to build the models, only you use polygons and	   pixels instead of plastic and paintbrushes."</blockquote><p>Another unique organic look to Babylon 5 is the shape of the Vorlon vesselssuch as Ambassador Kosh's ship.  The inspiration for the squid-like vesselis as original as it is surprising:<p><blockquote><img align=right width=160 height=120 src="/lurk/gif/000/docking.gif"><i>Eric:</i>      "One of the really unique looking vessels right from the start	   was the Vorlon Cruiser.  It's rather squid-like in look.  Was	   that the inspiration for the ship?"<p><i>Thornton:</i>  "It's a clove of garlic, actually.  I got the idea driving	   through the town of Gilroy which is kind of like the garlic	   capital of the world and has this absolutely delicious smell."</blockquote><p>The clove of garlic grew into an organic ship which Thornton used to sellthe idea of Organic Technology to Straczynski to be used by some of thealien races.<p><blockquote><i>Thornton:</i>  "If you have space traveling ability and genetic manipulation,	   why can't you grow a ship suited to the environment of space?  I	   had this idea of walking into a spaceship like stepping into the	   mouth of a whale and going for a ride."<p><i>Eric:</i>      "The Vorlon ship exterior is sort of mottled and is fractal	   generated.  I know about that and Kosh's environment suit has a	   similar look.  Was that intentional?"<p><i>Thornton:</i>  "They sort of evolved together."</blockquote><p>Using computers for special effects also allows for some rather intricateand spectacular effects which might be impossible to create realisticallyusing conventional means, such as the Starfury launches.  J. MichaelStraczynski had envisioned ships on platforms that would flip the shipsover and out into space or to launch ships from the front of the rotatingstation but Thornton had other suggestions, including pointing out that theonly way to launch ships from the front of the station would be through thecentral spinning bay because of the rotation of the station.  As for theStarfury platform launch:<p><blockquote><i>Thornton:</i>  "The easiest way to launch the ship and save energy is to	   literally just drop the ship out, you've dropped it out . . .	   it's already got momentum . . . and depending on where in the	   rotational cycle you drop the ship it decides what sort of	   direction it's going to go away from the station"<p><i>Eric:</i>      "You just have to be careful not to hit the non-rotating arm!"<p><i>Thornton:</i>  "Uh, yeah!  [laughs]  I think that would be kind of likeone of	   those World War One cannons that fired through the propellers.	   The whole thing [launch cycle] would be disabled when that	   [non-rotating arm] came around."<p><i>Eric:</i>      "What was your most technically complex shot so far?  I	   remember a shot from <a href="/lurk/guide/000.html">"The Gathering"</a>	   of two hundred Vorlon	   vessels exiting Babylon 5's Jump Gate (which beat the record	   number of On Screen ships in "The Return of the Jedi")."<p><i>Thornton:</i>  "That was actually a piece of cake.  It's just making upa bunch	   of them and layering them and layering them.  It's just one of	   those things that's really easy to do on the computer but is	   really incredibly difficult to do anywhere else.<p>	   "I think actually, in terms of tweaking . . .  I think one of	   (the technically) hardest shots that's paid off very well was	   John Teska'a shot of these little demons all clustered over	   Londo's back [<a href="/lurk/guide/025.html">The Geometry of Shadows</a>]	   which was very	   interesting because we had to motion-match the demons and move	   them along with Londo.  And we had to do it manually; there was	   no automatic tracking like there is in some of the more	   expensive packages so it was all done manually, by eye and it	   was very, very tasty.  I was extremely pleased with that.<p>	   "Unfortunately it's a shame because John Flinn [Director of	   Photography John C. Flinn, III A.S.C.] lit the scene really dark	   and so you can't really see what's going on.  They [the demons]	   were scrapping on his back and were hitting one another, it was	   kind of like having the Three Stooges strapped to his back and	   was incredibly funny!"</blockquote><p>One major similarity between computer generating effects and that ofconventional motion control effects for an ongoing series is a lack ofproduction time.  The time between being handed a completed script andgenerating the thirty or so effect shots needed for a complete episode isonly a matter of weeks.  Each computer generated frame for<a href="/lurk/guide/000.html">"The Gathering"</a>took almost one hour to render but that time has been substantially reducedto approximately twenty minutes.  Considering that there are aboutthirty frames generated per second, time is one of Foundation Imaging'smost important factors.<p><blockquote><i>Thornton:</i>  "There's an icon that you click [at each of the computer	   stations] before you leave your station and automatically that	   station becomes a slave and starts rendering images.  By the	   time we leave at night, the whole system is rendering.  We try	   not to waste a single minute!"</blockquote><p><a href="/lurk/ftp/Pictures/Effects/line1.jpg"><imgalign=right width=85 height=64 hspace=4href="/lurk/ftp/Pictures/Effects/Thumb/line1.gif"></a>Much like enthusiastic Babylon 5 fans, Thornton wishes that he could knowwhat will happen later down the closely guarded Straczynski story line butfor reasons differing from fans.  This would enable Thornton to plan moreexciting visuals.  Thornton believes that such incredible scenes such asthe <A HREF="/lurk/guide/008.line.page.html">battle of "The Line"</A>[<a href="/lurk/guide/008.html">"And the Sky Full of Stars"</a>] could have been madeeven better with more time for planning.<p><blockquote><i>Eric:</i>      "What shots from the series do you think could have beenbetter,	   if you'd had more time?"<p><i>Thornton:</i>  "Oh, the battle of "The Line" is one I wish we'd had more time	   to prepare for.  It was supposed to be really emotive but it	   wound up kind of ordinary."<p>	   "I'll tell you what I'd really like to do.  I'd like to do a	   really decent scene with the Minbari Cruisers.  I think the	   Minbari Cruisers are really cool looking and I'd really like to	   do a decent battle scene with them."</blockquote><p>With Foundation Imaging's increased ability to create dynamic images in ashort period of time, there are approximately thirty ship effects scenes ineach episode but instead of visualizing more and more such shots in laterepisodes as computational speed increases, Thornton has asked that numberof shots to remain a constant, giving him the ability to concentrate onquality instead of quantity.<p>However Foundation Imaging does more than just space ship scenes and thesespecial effects sometimes are mixed with the live action plates shot forthe series.  This requires a supervisor on set to aid the director with thespecial needs for shooting background plates (for Virtual sets and "BlueScreen" shots) which are later given to Foundation Imaging.<p><blockquote><i>Eric:</i>      "What's required for Virtual sets?  Do you have to help	   directors with what's needed for Blue Screens and so on?"<p><i>Thornton:</i>  "Virtual sets are basically matte paintings; there's a	   supervisor that's on set who basically watches over all the 'On	   Set' stuff and that's Ted Rae this year.  Virtual sets are a	   technique that's been around, as I said, for a long time."</blockquote><p>Back at Foundation Imaging, Cherry Hitch is then responsible for 2-Drotoscoping, virtual sets and overlays such as laser fire and so on.  Shemust take the background plates and introduce the computer generatedeffects onto them.<p>"Blue Screen" shots are live action plates that have a specific area whichis color-coded that is capable of being digitally "removed" so that specialeffects can be "placed" into the shot.<p>Virtual sets are sets which do not exist in the real world.  Actors perform(again) before a color-coded area, then later an entire set is painted inFoundation Imaging's computers and inserted around the actors.  Examples ofthis sort of imaging include the Narn War Cruiser bridge set and theBabylon 5 Observation Deck where the Centauri Emperor met with CaptainSheridan (<a href="/lurk/guide/031.html">The Coming of Shadows</a>).<p>Another, similar effect is Matte Painting which also can be done onFoundation Imaging's computers.  The bi-level Zocalo visualized in theopening title sequence of each of Season Two's episodes are examples whereone plate of the Zocalo was shot, then a second plate with actors walkingalong specifically defined areas was computer inserted over the first.<p><blockquote><i>Eric:</i>      "I know you're busy right now creating effects for the third	   season of Babylon 5, but has Foundation Imaging produced effects	   for other shows or movies as well?"<p><i>Thornton:</i>  "Oh yeah.  Right now we're working on a show of mine called	   "Hypernauts" a sort of kid's show."<p>	   "We did a show last year called 'Journey to Mars' which is . . .	   not great.  And I don't know if they're ever going to show it on	   TV, it's that 'not great.'  When you're asked to do rubbish, you	   have to do it.  I mean the shots were good but they were very,	   very long, I mean we had shots flying over the Mars landscape	   that were like a minute and a half long so it's like 'go to	   sleep, go out and get yourself a cup of coffee and a sandwich'	   and come back and the shot's still running.<p>	   "There was this kind of strange director that they had that was	   coming up with all this stuff."</blockquote><p>But with the talents of Ron Thornton and his team at Foundation Imaging,imaginative producer J. Michael Straczynski and the gifted directors ofBabylon 5, computers are sure to keep producing attention-riveting specialeffects.
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