lurkers-guide/guide/072

<!-- TITLE Into the Fire -->

<h2><a name="OV">Overview</a></h2>

<blockquote><cite>
The Army of Light mounts its final assault.  Londo learns some surprising
information about Morden.
</cite>

<a href="http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Wasser,+Ed">Ed Wasser</a> as Morden.
</blockquote>

<pre><a href="/lurk/p5/intro.html">P5 Rating</a>: <a href="/lurk/p5/072">9.30</a>

Production number: 406
Original air week: February 3, 1997
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000DGBEY/thelurkersguidet">DVD release date</a>: January 6, 2004

Written by J. Michael Straczynski
Directed by Kevin Dobson
</pre>

<p>
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000636G/thelurkersguidet">An 
episodic soundtrack is available.</a>

<p>
<hr size=3>

<h2><a name="BP">Plot Points</a></h2>
<ul>

   <li>@@@854957043 The first of Lorien's people were effectively immortal,
	but later generations grew old and died.

   <li>@@@854957043 The Shadows and Vorlons never attacked one another
	directly because their goal wasn't to defeat the opposition in a
	military sense, but to convince their charges, the younger races,
	to forsake the opposing philosophy.  Along the way, both races
	lost track of who they were and what they wanted.

   <li>@@@854957043 All the First Ones, including the Shadows and Vorlons, are
	gone, ushering in the third age of mankind (which seems to refer to the
	younger races as a group, not just humanity.)  In the first age, man
	was too primitive to be considered part of the larger
	picture.  In the second age, man was intelligent and aware of the
	greater world, but his fate was manipulated by outside forces.  Now,
	with all the older races gone, man has entered an age of
	self-determination.

</ul>

<h2><a name="UQ">Unanswered Questions</a></h2>
<ul>

   <li>@@@854957043 What lies beyond the galactic rim?  Why do all the elder
	races want to go there?

   <li>@@@854957043 How far did Lorien's broadcast of the conversations with
	the Vorlons and Shadows extend?  Just to the crews of the ships at
	Coriana 6, or more broadly than that?

   <li>@@@854989151 Does Londo sending Vir back to Babylon 5 mean that Vir is
	now the Centauri Ambassador?

</ul>

<h2><a name="AN">Analysis</a></h2>
<ul>

   <li>@@@854957043 The First Ones were of surprisingly little help,
	considering the trouble to which Ivanova and Lorien went to secure
	their assistance. They amounted to little more than strange-looking
	guns, just there to pop in, destroy the Vorlon planetkiller, and
	do little else (though one of them can be seen destroying a few
	Shadow and Vorlon ships.)  Why were the Shadows and Vorlons seemingly
	undisturbed by the intervention of their peers, preferring instead
	to continue fighting as before?  Why didn't the First Ones do anything
	about the Shadow planetkiller?

	<p>
	It could be argued that they had to be present because Lorien needed
	them to see that it was time to depart.  But given how reclusive
	most of the remaining First Ones were, they could likely have remained
	right where they were without ever significantly affecting mankind's
	reign of the galaxy.  Only the Shadows and Vorlons were actively
	interfering with the younger races.  For all intents and purposes the
	remaining First Ones were already gone anyway.

<p>
   <li>@@@855428614 Sheridan's plan -- luring the Shadows to Coriana 6 with
	false information, then planting bombs in nearby asteroids --
	is the same strategy he employed to good effect against the
	Black Star during the Earth-Minbari War
	(<a href="036.html">"There All the Honor Lies."</a>)

<P>
   <li>@@@855424386 The representation of the Shadows and Vorlons while
	Sheridan and Delenn were talking to them was symbolic of their nature.
	The Shadows moved around, shifted form, and spoke with many voices,
	representative of chaos.  The Vorlons were frozen in ice, cold and
	aloof and unchanging.

<p>
   <li>@@@865709913 The episode's title can be read as a reference to a
	crucible, which certainly fits the theme of the storyline.  Sheridan
	brought together the concentrated forces of the Shadows, Vorlons, the
	First Ones, and the younger races; as they were all forced to interact,
	they were transformed.

<p>
   <li>@@@854957043 How did Londo know Morden was accompanied by
	Shadows?  Perhaps he simply put two and two together after noticing
	the strange sounds near Morden in
	<a href="059.html">"Interludes and Examinations,"</a>
	but this is the first evidence that Londo has been doing research on
	Morden's associates.

<p>
   <li>@@@856977107 What happened to the Shadow hit by the guard's weapon?
	Was its body recovered?  In
	<a href="027.html">"The Long Dark,"</a>
	when the Shadow warrior was killed, it didn't leave a body behind,
	so perhaps it's some kind of standard protection mechanism used by
	the Shadows and their servants.

<p>
   <li>@@@855249157 By killing Morden and destroying the Shadow base, Londo
	has probably sealed the fate of Centauri Prime as seen in
	<a href="061.html">"War Without End, Part Two."</a>
	As Morden said, the Shadows may be gone, but they have allies, and
	Londo told Sheridan in that episode that the Shadows' allies were
	the ones laying waste to Centauri Prime.
	
	<p>
	Whether those allies will also be responsible for putting the keeper
	on Londo isn't clear.  If so, they would appear to be after more than
	simple revenge, since they were trying to extract information from
	Delenn.

	<p>
	Ironically, if Londo had left the base and Morden alone, the Vorlons
	would have turned back anyway, since their planet-killer was summoned
	to Coriana 6 before it fired a shot at Centauri Prime.  Of course, he
	had no way of knowing that.

<p>
   <li>@@@889479051 When he first appeared in
	<a href="013.html">"Signs and Portents,"</a>
	Morden asked G'Kar, Delenn, and Londo what they wanted.  Later, in
	<a href="038.html">"In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum,"</a>
	he asked the same of Vir.  The irony is, only Vir actually ended up
	getting exactly what he asked for.

<p>
   <li>@@@865730452 As the Vorlon ship passed overhead, Londo and everything
	around him fell under its shadow, underscoring the point about Londo's 
	Shadow involvement.

<p>
   <li>@@@855688842 After Selini was destroyed, Morden clutched almost
	desperately at his pendant.  Just a reflex, or was it perhaps some
	form of link to the Shadows?

<p>
   <li>@@@855249157 Given his fate when Sheridan destroyed the White Star on
	Z'ha'dum, and the fact that only extreme intervention restored any
	semblance of his physical body
	(<a href="067.html">"The Hour of the Wolf"</a>)
	Morden may qualify as "the one who is already dead" from
	Lady Morella's prophecy
	(<a href="053.html">"Point of No Return."</a>)
	By killing Morden and thus condemning Centauri Prime to the dismal
	future seen 17 years hence, Londo has plausibly given up a chance to
	redeem himself.

<p>
   <li>@@@855250685 The Shadows themselves may have departed, but what have
	they left behind?  Many of their ships were manned by other races.
	Did the pilots leave for the Rim as well, or are there still Shadow
	ships flying around the galaxy?  What about their cities on Z'ha'dum,
	and the ships they buried on worlds all over the galaxy?  Did all
	their representatives on Earth and elsewhere leave too?

	<p>
	Similarly, is the Vorlon homeworld now accessible to anyone who cares
	to visit?  What did the Vorlons leave behind?

	<p>
	Lorien also may have left something behind, namely the ship he and
	Sheridan took to Babylon 5 in
	<a href="069.html">"The Summoning."</a>

<p>
   <li>@@@854989151 Who will force mankind to step down when our time has
	passed?  The Vorlons and Shadows likely wouldn't have left were it
	not for Lorien's intervention.  With both of them, and their peers,
	gone, there'll be no father figure to coax mankind out of the way
	millions of years hence, when <em>we're</em> the mysterious elder race
	meddling in the affairs of the newcomers.

	<p>
	Perhaps that role will be filled by Jason Ironheart
	(<a href="006.html">"Mind War."</a>)
	He indicated he'd be back in a million years.

</ul>

<h2><a name="NO">Notes</a></h2>
<ul>

   <li>@@@855041263 In the initial US broadcast, the end credits were
	accompanied by the theme music from season three, not season four.

   <li>@@@855250214 Reflecting his increased status, Vir's hair appears to
	be somewhat longer in this episode than previously.

   <li>@@@855424526 The space background in the opening sequence, when the
	White Star awaits the arrival of more First Ones, is from a
	<a href="http://oposite.stsci.edu/pubinfo/PR/95/44.html">Hubble
	Space Telescope photo,</a>
	part of the Eagle Nebula.

   <li>@@@855594640 The island of Selini, shown being destroyed by Londo,
	bears strong similarity to the island of Sicily, Italy, as seen
	from space.

   <li>@@@855520811 The scene in which Lorien tells Ivanova about his people
	and about his immortality was originally written for the previous
	episode,
	<a href="071.html">"The Long Night."</a>
	That's why it takes place aboard Babylon 5 rather than the White
	Star, forcing a rather strange detour to the station when Ivanova
	would have wanted to head directly to the scene of the battle.
	When Lorien says, "I was told you were ready to leave," he's referring
	to Ivanova's departure on Sheridan's mission to find more First Ones.
	To cover for this inconsistency, an extra line of voiceover dialogue
	was added to the first scene in the episode, Ivanova telling Lorien
	that they need to get back to Babylon 5 and rejoin the fleet.

   <li>@@@855595571 Lorien said there were six First Ones, but only five can
	be seen leaving the scene of the battle.  Of course, the sixth might
	have left separately, or Lorien could have been referring to himself.

   <li>@@@861607080 When Londo arrives in the throne room, he gathers his
	WITS about him: he orders the unnamed Minister to gather the ministers
	of War, Information, Transportation, and Security.

</ul>

<h2><a name="JS">jms speaks</a></h2>
<ul>

   <li>@@@854987635 One of the things about the way events come to a head
	and finish in ITF is that it's very unnerving...okay, *now* what?  The
	ongoing conflict has become something you could count on, you knew the
	rough shape of what might be coming along.  Now all that's kicked over,
	and you have to get on with the next aspect: making a new life.

	<p>
	What interests me, what I wanted to do with making this show,
	was in large measure to examine the issues and emotions and events that
	precede a war, precipitate a war, the effects of the war itself, the
	end of the war and the aftermath of the war.  The war is hardware; the
	people are at the center of the story.

<p>
   <li>@@@855596749 So far the general reaction has been, "But...but...what
	NOW?" which is *exactly* the reaction I was hoping for.

	<p>
	Everybody keeps commenting, "This is the sort of episode you
	have at the end, not 6 eps into your season."  Yep.

	<p>
	We're funny that way....

<p>
   <li>@@@855520133 Now comes more fun...again, it's all about process...going
	from post-war (Minbari) to an uneasy peace, to showing how a war starts
	to come about, the actual beginning of a war, its progress, then the
	aftermath. That arc really is at the core of the show...the changes that
	take place through this process.

<p>
   <li>@@@855798440 I've always preferred the arc, both inside an episode, and
	between episodes, and even in the course of a season, where there's the
	resolution and then there's time to consider, reflect, and show the
	impact of these things.  It's not just about solving the technical
	problem that way...it's about the people who solve the problem and how
	they are affected by the problems and solutions.

<p>
   <li>@@@855941361 It's often the aftermath that holds the greatest
	interest.  The Civil War tells one kind of interesting story; the
	Reconstruction that followed, which endured for many years longer
	than the war, tells another, just as interesting story.

	<p>
	There's a line one of the characters will say soon, "The
	duration's going to be a lot longer than the war."  It's a very
	true comment.

	<p>
	One of my favorite books is "Alas, Babylon," by Pat Frank, which
	is about a nuclear war (written in the early 60s).  But the war
	happens entirely off-stage, way in the distance...and the book
	focuses on one small township dealing with the after effects, and
	the day-to-day realities of surviving in a changed world.  I've
	always been partial to that kind of storytelling.

<p>
   <li>@@@855996831 As for the story being over...not by a long sight.
	Frankly, some of what's coming in the latter part of this season is more
	intense than anything we've done previously.  We really focus in on the
	characters and the after-shocks of the war, in ways usually ignored.

	<p>
	After all, we all know how nice and calm and civilized Europe
	was after the War To End All Wars came to an end...we hardly heard a
	peep from that part of the world thereafter....

<p>
   <li>@@@848786435 As usual every season, we start out with lighter CGI
	episodes, and build to big stuff as we go.  That will be the same this
	season as last.  Our first really big CGI episode last season was
	"Messages," which was around episode #8, then "Severed," episode #10.
	This season we'll hit with big stuff around episode #6, which will
	likely be as big as "Severed." Rather than push stuff back, we've been
	able to move CGI stuff forward and expand on scenes.

<p>
   <li>@@@854694606 Just a quick note with two purposes: 

	<p>
	1) to alert folks interested in Lightwave to check out the B5 episode
	airing in about 2 weeks, "Into the Fire," the second new episode back,
	to see some nifty stuff one can do when one applies oneself.  That
	episode has roughly 114 CGI shots in 43 minutes, and are easily some of
	the most elaborate ever done for TV.  (There's some nice stuff toward
	the latter half of this coming week's episode, but the following one is
	the big blow-out.)

	<p>
	and

	<p>
	2) to plink the noses of those on here who came on proclaiming that
	"good sources" told them that the CGI EFX on B5 would either go to hell,
	or look crappy, or be less than before.  We're now doing far more EFX
	than in any previous season, and more elaborate shots.  I said these
	individuals were full of it then, and the facts have spoken for
	themselves in the time since.  These individuals have since dropped
	away and gotten real silent. I hope they'll be as forthright now that
	they've been shown to be wrong as they were in their original
	proclamations.

	<p>
	Otherwise we'd have to assume that these individuals were spewing out
	things they knew weren't true, just to poison the well and cause us
	grief, and I just can't *imagine* that *anyone* would do something like
	that....

<p>
   <li>@@@855334932 <em>Why wasn't the Vorlon shown in its true form?</em><br>
	Because we'd still be rendering it.  There are 114 EFX shots in
	that episode, and as it was we just barely made the satellite uplink. 
	If it wasn't absolutely necessary, better to do it more simply.  As it
	was, we were rendering the shadow form too.

<p>
   <li>@@@857325978 <em>Are you happy with having to hurry season four along
	in case the show isn't renewed?</em><br>
	Truth: I go back and forth.  The "Into the Fire" thing, for instance...
	it would've likely been a two-part episode, but it still would've ended
	up exactly where it ended up.  A few more big explosions, but I wonder
	also if that really adds anything past a certain point.

	<p>
	From a production standpoing, since "Fire" darn near killed us in the
	CGI department, it's probably a darned good thing it DIDN'T go for 2
	eps. That puppy had something around 120 or 140 EFX shots.

	<p>
	Overall, I'm actually quite happy with how this season is going, in
	terms of the intensity of the arc and the emotions and incidents.  Parts
	would've been a bit more laid-back if I had decided not to cover my bets
	on renewal, and maybe the situation has worked out to the best (again
	the ABA principle, Art By Accident).

	<p>
	So I dunno...all I know is what's in the episodes this season, and it's
	pretty cool overall....

<p>
   <li>@@@855335304 1.) The CGI was excellent and seemed very different than
	in previous episodes, much larger, better defined, darker.  Was this an
	effort on your part, or the post-production department?"

	<p>
	We're trying some new rendering techniques...I think they're working
	very well.  (Some of the stuff in the next episode has a very realistic
	feel to it.)

	<p>
	2.) Have you found some way to slow down time or compress the episode
	into a shorter span?  When I finished this one, I swore I had watched a
	two hour movie.

	<p>
	You did.  We arranged for a time dilation bubble to appear over your
	house.

	<p>
	3.) Any reaction from the actor or staff on this one?  Especially, Ed
	Wasser? (Might be a bit of spoilers in the answer to this one)

	<p>
	Ed wants to come back as an alien.  I see no problem with this.

<p>
   <li>@@@855689033 <em>Any significance to Morden's pendant?</em><br>
	It may have its uses.

<p>
   <li>@@@855168180 The shadow voice was definitely Ed Wasser.

<p>
   <li>@@@857328385 Yeah, that was Ed's voice.  Seemed appropos.

	<p>
	Definitely didn't want it to end in a big explosion.  We've seen
	many of those; how many more can you see?  One is the same as the other
	after a while. And if we destroyed everything, how would that show we'd
	grown enough to create the new age?  It's a matter of evolution, not
	destruction.

<p>
   <li>@@@855594069 I've suggested the
	use of a minor chords version of the theme music to Chris on several
	occasions, where it seemed right, here, Signs and Portents, and in
	others.  The change from minor to major chords does signal an emotional
	transition, and it works well.

	<p>
	The director initially didn't want to do the Londo rage scene in
	one take; it was something I felt very strongly about, and I think it
	works well.

	<p>
	BTW, there's another example of a long single take coming up
	soon, on Epsilon 3, which is all I'll specify.  I kinda wanted the
	scene to play itself out, without cutting, and to show just how
	amazingly capable some of our actors can be.  We're talking here almost
	4 minutes of footage, not one cut in the whole thing, very fast
	dialogue, and not a single muffed line, with the performances working
	wonderfully.  You'll know it when you see it.

<p>
   <li>@@@859738308 <em>Why were the other First Ones still around?</em><br>
	They were all still hanging around here, for one reason or
	another, mostly to do with inertia, familiarity...but finally
	recognized that it was time.

<p>
   <li>@@@855424386 The Sigma 957 ship was one of the First One ships, yeah.

<p>
   <li>@@@855334932 I don't think the shadows speaking through Lyta referred to
	Delenn by name; they said only, "And you they have left for us."

	<p>
	The jostling from the asteroid was an accident, though the
	others would've figured out what was going on soon enough.

<p>
   <li>@@@855424386 <em>Any relation between the Vorlon representative's
	outfit and Ivanova's in the
	<a href="033.html">"All Alone in the Night"</a>
	dream?</em><br>
	No, no relation to Ivanova's outfit.  I just wanted a sense of
	something that was both ancient and ageless, frozen, formal, distant.

<p>
   <li>@@@855596749 The woman was in ice as a symbol of their ridigity, their
	inflexibility, "frozen in time," as the shadows say.

<p>
   <li>@@@855248171 <em>Two ancient adversaries gave up just because Delenn
	and Sheridan told them to?</em><br>
	I think that, for me, what mitigates against that is that a) it
	wasn't just Delenn and Sheridan, it was with virtually every other
	major civilization around backing their play, and adding their support,
	their voice, even being willing to die for the sake of this
	confrontation.  If it were just the two of them...they'd be scragged. 
	The two forces needed to be shown that the others had turned against
	them, and that their true faces had been exposed.

	<P>
	b) The other key for me is that neither the Vorlons nor the
	Shadows saw themselves as conquerers or adversaries...both believed
	they were doing what was right for us.  And like any possessive parent,
	they'll keep on believing that until the kid is strong enough to stand
	up and say, "No, this is what *I* want."

	<p>
	Most wars tend to end with one singular event...sometimes it's a
	big bomb, or a series of big bombs...and sometimes it comes with a
	negotiation. The two sides meet in a room, sometimes with
	representatives of other nations, and together they hammer out a truce,
	or a peace.  There's the Nagasaki solution on the one hand, and the
	"let's meet in a room and talk about this" of Jimmy Carter, Anwar Sadat
	and Minister Begin.

	<p>
	Both work.

<p>
   <li>@@@855424386 There is a definite parent/child/parent dynamic going
	on there, in that Lorien is, in a way, in that role to the Vorlons and
	the Shadows, they're in that role to us, and we're in that role to
	those who will follow. It's the endless cycle.

<p>
   <li>@@@855593947 <em>About the final scene between Lorien and the Vorlon
	and Shadow images</em><br>
	One could almost argue for the whole scene as a classic
	"intervention" out of psychotherapy or group counseling.

	<p>
	Very early on, John Copeland asked me, "Okay, bottom line it for
	me, what's the war about?"  I said, "It's about killing your parents." 
	And his eyes went wide, and I explained, "No, not literally...but at
	some point you have to step outside the control of your parents and
	create your own life, your own destiny.  That process is
	inevitable...and if there are indeed older races, and they're
	interfering, that puts them smack in the middle of that same process."

	<p>
	It's not about who has the biggest gun, because there's *always*
	somebody else with a bigger gun...it's about *understanding* your way
	out of a problem.

<p>
   <li>@@@884031006 <em>Will we ever learn why the first Kosh was more
	sympathetic to the younger races than his replacement?</em><br>
	That's a good question, and one of the things I'd like to do
	(but which I can't see any way to do in the series) is the whole story
	of who Kosh was, how he got to be who and what he was, why he felt the
	way he did toward humans (part of it was knowing Valen)...maybe this
	will have to go into one of the novels.

<p>
   <li>@@@884632799 <em>Did Kosh go to B5 knowing that the conflict would
	soon be over?</em><br>
	I think Kosh came late to the
	table. I don't think he came to B5 with that intent, but it grew in him
	over time that this cycle had to end, and he could be instrumental to
	that.

<p>
   <li>@@@856337751 The main motive for going beyond the rim...there's a heck
	of a big Taco Bell out there....

<p>
   <li>@@@856920989 The notion of the Vorlons and Shadows representing
	Order and Chaos goes back to the Babylonian creation myths, that the
	universe was born in the conflict between order and chaos, hence part of
	the reason I decided to name this show after Babylon.  That's called
	*research*.  It informs the show, but it is not the show.

<p>
   <li>@@@855249157 Certainly Londo would like to avoid his fate, and Lady
	Morella prophesied certain ways of doing this...and he's had some
	chances, and blown them.  As you say, he's creating the very future he'd
	hoped to avoid.

</ul>